apollinav: apollinav (Default)
[personal profile] apollinav

Yes, I'm aware that I'm being a hipocrite.  Thank you.  I've just finished posting Ch 61 of my MLC Fic.

MLC for some girls out there is real.  There's nothing glorious about forced marriage.  A lot of MLCs romanticise them - not to knock any particular author.  MLC is fiction.  This is real life.  Big difference.  I get it.

But this still bothers me.  

And I'm not going to listen to 'cultural sensitivity issues' bullcrap - I don't care that it's a cultural practice.   According to my values, it's morally wrong.


Date: 4 September 2009 02:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] irishredlass.livejournal.com
You are right there are two sides to every coin. I love reading MLC fic, but at the same time if someone told me that I had to marry a particular man or any man or I would give up my human rights there would be war!

I just love reading how different authors solve the problem and bring two of my favorite characters into harmony.

You are doing so brilliantly!

Date: 4 September 2009 05:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] apollinav.livejournal.com
The authors who've tackled MLC are brilliant. And I so totally fangurl them. But in real life?

Oh hell no.

Because MLC is the state ordering a girl to marry, against her will. How is that a good thing? *shudders*

Date: 4 September 2009 03:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mischievous-t.livejournal.com
Well, therein lies the difference between fantasy and reality.

Student/teacher relationship? Non-con sex? Forced marriage?

Fantasy = hot. Real life = NOT.

Date: 4 September 2009 05:13 am (UTC)

Date: 4 September 2009 05:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] apollinav.livejournal.com
*nods* Absolutely. Governments the world over should never regulate/dictate when someone will get married and/or to whom they get married. It's a liberty that we have that gets written out in MLCs. I don't see how anyone would allow it. But then, this is also fantasy life. *kisses*

Date: 4 September 2009 03:22 am (UTC)
ext_17377: (Default)
From: [identity profile] teshara.livejournal.com
my first marriage was (mostly) arranged and although it didn't work out, he was neither horrible, mean, or otherwise.

Now if he'd been straight I'd be happily living in Pakistan right now...

Date: 4 September 2009 03:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mischievous-t.livejournal.com
Were you given a choice in the arrangements?

Date: 4 September 2009 03:50 am (UTC)
ext_17377: (Default)
From: [identity profile] teshara.livejournal.com
according to Islamic Law every woman has the right to say no.
The unfortunate truth is that some girls are so pressured to say yes so their families can be rid of them (traditionally newlyweds live with the husband's family) because of financial constraints girls say yes because they're afraid of the wrath of their families if they say otherwise.
Several girls I know have broken off several arranged engagements (one girl has racked up 5!) because the man's family misrepresented itself.
There is a reason the wedding ceremony takes place in several different rooms. The groom has the right to say he's being pressured and back out and so does the bride, completely away from prying ears and their families.
Ideally, if this is the case, the imam is supposed to take the child (because you ARE a child until you are married, regardless of age) and place them in a safe place where they won't have to worry about family retribution while the family is punished (sometimes with prison time, public humiliation, or worse) and fined for going against Islamic Law.
Unfortunately, there are bad imams out there that take bribes, hate women (or men), or just don't care about the unions they sanctify. (Some even forage papers. One relative was married to a girl that never even existed to keep his family off his back.)
If parents don't match the children up correctly (and there is a list) just for an exchange of money or goods it's considered sexual slavery and can be 'annauled.'
My (former) cousin and his wife knew each other two weeks before getting married. She was terrified he was going to be cruel. He was terrified she wasn't going to be tolerable, but after a week they were thumping like bunnies and they're happily married in LA.
I deeply loved my husband, but he misrepresented himself for the sake of pleasing everyone and it was a shame. Our marriage was dissolved as if it had never happened, but his family still thinks we got a divorce. It was the best thing for everyone.
If you're 'home' the man has to say 'I divorce you' three times to be divorced. (And trust me, these words are not spoken lightly) The woman has to file paperwork because some women are prone to... erm... irrational outbursts because of emotional instability due to inbreeding. (It's not pretty, but it's true. In my husbands family, the followed the strict rule to only marry first cousins. For generations. They were, for the most part stable, but there were a few people in his family that I suspected needed to be heavily medicated.) Many women that file for divorce are remarried to the same man later because of this or call off the divorce in the middle of the proceedings.
There are women that are in horrible circumstances and they should be allowed to divorce (or hit with a hammer) the horrible men they were sold off to like sheep, they're in... oh crap, I can't think of the right word... hillbilly areas.
Those are the areas over there that need the most help because their systems are completely corrupt and the people charged to protect the sanctity of the community have failed for their own gain. >:(
Those guys make me so mad! They give all arranged marriages a bad name! (And the parents should be thrown in jail as well!)

Date: 4 September 2009 04:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mischievous-t.livejournal.com
What you've described is the difference between an arranged marriage and a forced one. Choice.

Thank you so much for sharing this with us.

Date: 4 September 2009 06:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pyjamapants.livejournal.com
This is fascinating, Tesh. Thanks for writing all this.

Date: 5 September 2009 01:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] slytherinlaurel.livejournal.com
Thank you for sharing this side of it. I've known a couple Hindu couples with (successful) arranged marriages, but have never known anything about Islamic practices.

Date: 4 September 2009 05:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] apollinav.livejournal.com
I don't have an arranged marriage, but I'm Jewish, and there are also many arranged marriages within Orthodox Judaism. I have no problem with that. And I have no problem with any arranged marriage. They can be very successful.

I don't approve of forced/coerced marriages. MLC goes the next step and has government dictated marriages, and that's morally reprehensible.

Marriage should never be non-con. That's rape.

Date: 4 September 2009 05:29 am (UTC)
ext_17377: (Default)
From: [identity profile] teshara.livejournal.com
I know Chelleybean was kind of regretful she made that challenge :D
It was originally supposed to be sitcom or Bollywood-ish but it evolved like crazy and only about 10 fics made the final cut for kudos. (It was sort of a contest at the time that spiraled out of control.)
It seems to me that a lot of HG/SS stories were way more diverse before MLC. If you do a reverse date look up on ff.net for SS/HG you'll see what I mean.
I like the fics more where they aren't forced to have sex. Personally, I don't see Severus being able to get an erection on the fly for a girl he can't stand. They read like rape-by-the-state or non-con-in-disguise fic to me and it makes me wince when that isn't even addressed.

Date: 4 September 2009 03:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] apollinav.livejournal.com
That is interesting. I had no idea. I haven't been around that long, so it's fascinating to hear. Thank you for that perspective.

Date: 5 September 2009 01:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] slytherinlaurel.livejournal.com
It was Chelleybean that made the original challenge?? Wow. I totally didn't remember that.

Date: 5 September 2009 01:56 am (UTC)
ext_17377: (Default)
From: [identity profile] teshara.livejournal.com
the only remember is because that was my nickname in college and I was kind of surprised to meet another :D

Date: 4 September 2009 03:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sbrande.livejournal.com
I agree. You are doing a GREAT job at tackling a most difficult subject, but I can differentiate between fiction and reality. Whilst your fic is hot, forced marriage is definitely NOT.

Love Sonia, who thinks you are a God ;) LOL!

Date: 4 September 2009 05:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] apollinav.livejournal.com
Fiction and reality are very different. Agree wholeheartedly.

But I read this and had a moment of MLC repulsion because most of them are government enforced in fanon. Imagine... ew.

Date: 4 September 2009 03:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] droxy.livejournal.com
But but..whines...I love your fic.

lets face it...thisis just entertainment romance.

I have seen arranged (not forced) marriages. The majority of them in modern India that I saw and as they explained it to me, is its not forced. But you have more folks involved in the process.

The worst I saw I was was a special for of Islam prostitution where men had temporary brides...sort of like rent a wife.. it is completely legal in their (the men's and the clergy's) eyes..then they dump the gal often knocked up and the men walk away. It is prostitution , its a whole racket that made teh clergy rich, and this was published in the Hyderabad times. That is the horridness of that real "forced" marriage. Religious hipocrites are everrwhere in the world.

Honestly, I can TELL the deffiernce between a MLC fanfic and know its fiction. But the reality is hideous.

Date: 4 September 2009 05:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] apollinav.livejournal.com
*nods* Fanon is not rl. I'm with you 100% babe. The story just struck a chord because it really hits home that there are women out there without a choice. Forced marriage is rape. And I mean forced marriage - not arranged marriages where the bride has a choice in the matter.

*shudders* What you describe is sickening. It may be from my cultural POV, but I can't divorce myself from my beliefs and say that's ever OK.

Date: 4 September 2009 03:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] junewilliams7.livejournal.com
You are not a hypocrite. You -- and your readers -- know the difference between fantasy and reality.

And I am glad there are groups and some govenments trying to help these girls and women get out of these real-life forced marriages. Let's hope this is the last generation that sees this problem!

Date: 4 September 2009 05:22 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] apollinav.livejournal.com
It sounds like France is a day late and a Euro short, but the attempt is being made. But it's still highly disturbing.

Thank God I have my rights.

Date: 4 September 2009 03:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] miamadwyn.livejournal.com
What mis-t said. Most of what I read in fanfic would not be good in RL. The same could be said for a lot of what I read in published fiction, for that matter.

Fantasy vs reality.

Date: 4 September 2009 04:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] miamadwyn.livejournal.com
So are you actually saying that you've decided you don't like Marriage Law Challenge fics, or that you don't like arranged/forced marriages in RL?

Date: 4 September 2009 05:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] apollinav.livejournal.com
I like most MLCs. Honestly, I do. Fantasy vs RL.

I have a big huge honking problem with FORCED marriage, which is non-con in RL. And I would have a big problem with any MLC fic that glorified a non-con relationship. Most don't, in fact I can't think of an example of one where a bride was forced by the ministry and it didn't somehow work out.

Arranged marriages can work. But usually there's a level of choice there. I'm good with that.

Date: 4 September 2009 01:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] miamadwyn.livejournal.com
There have been a few anti-MLCs where people wrote with that in mind, that it shouldn't work, that to write one where it does is unrealistic to these characters and it glorifies something ugly, etc. I understand why some people wouldn't like them. I also understand why somebody are tired of them and complain that there are too many and there's nothing new and why do this again and again....

Except that there is always something new, as you proved with the magnificent Gilded Cage. And for the most part, the authors who write "another boring MLC" probably would have been writing something else boring if not the MLC, that it's about a writer's imagination getting tweaked and their ability to take you somewhere wonderful--no matter the premise.

After all, how much fiction is the same old story retold? How many movies? And yet, the same old story retold can be transcendent in the hands of somebody with a new perspective.

Date: 4 September 2009 03:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] apollinav.livejournal.com
Oh sure, absolutely. It's very refreshing to read new and different - and with this creative lot, it happens often and in wonderful ways. Fiction is great. Reality sucks.

Date: 4 September 2009 04:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] karelia.livejournal.com
First of all, you absolutely speak my mind here; I completely agree with your view on this!

I've had the misfortune to know many arranged marriages through hubby's extended family (who were dead-against him marrying a European, but he ignored them), and rarely were they happy.

On the other hand, of course, I can't help wondering how many potentially happy marriages are prevented here in the West by well-meaning parents who actively stop their children from marrying the woman/man of their choice. My mother was totally advocating the arranging of anti-marriage with me; I ignored her too, and since it's been over 24 years, I can honestly say it was the best thing I ever did. *shrugs*

Date: 4 September 2009 05:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] apollinav.livejournal.com
I have a strong feeling that if my mother had been alive, my husband and I would not have stayed together, and we've been together for 10 years now. And were crazy in love.

It works on both sides.

But I'm dead set against the FORCED part. Even in most arranged marriages the bride has some sort of say, but if it's coerced - that's rape.

Date: 4 September 2009 05:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mischievous-t.livejournal.com
Not just rape. That's slavery.

Date: 4 September 2009 05:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] karelia.livejournal.com
I'm dead set against FORCED anything.

I guess my point is that there is a very thin line between arranged and coerced. If you're brought up from the moment you're born in the belief that your parents will choose your husband/wife, is it still arranged or could it be considered coerced/forced? If you're brought up without knowing that you have a choice, then it's a form of mind-control, and I consider that absolutely forced.

Date: 4 September 2009 03:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] apollinav.livejournal.com
Sadly, you are correct, and as I sit here I can think of too many examples from RL that back up the assertion - from all cultures.

Date: 4 September 2009 05:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] severely-lupine.livejournal.com
"One such consulate assisted the escape of Fatou Diouf, a 28-year-old Muslim woman of Senegalese descent.

She was lured abroad at the age of 18 -- her father told her he had won a trip to Senegal and gave her the ticket. When she arrived, she was told she had already been married off to her 36-year-old uncle in a religious ceremony that did not require the spouses to be present."

What is wrong with some people? Seriously. Who on earth would marry his daughter off to his brother, let alone without her consent or knowledge? And what kind of effed-up practice allows marriage between two people who aren't even present?

Date: 4 September 2009 05:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] apollinav.livejournal.com
We are looking at this problem from the angle of our own cultural bias. Were we from Senegal, perhaps this wouldn't be a big deal. Perhaps this is normal.

But I cannot divorce myself this dramatically from my own values. I find it sickening. Horribly sickening.

Effed up is right.

Date: 4 September 2009 07:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shiv5468.livejournal.com
Everyone keeps saying that it's fantasy etc.. but really, I find it hard to read a story where people aren't behaving like people. It seems to me to be bad writing.

People who've been brought up in the western world would not easily submit to having their freedoms taken away from them. If you don't address that in your story, then you're OOC.

Date: 4 September 2009 03:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] apollinav.livejournal.com
I would agree with that assessment. Especially when it goes from absolute loathing to mushy-in-lurve in two chapters. But I think that might be a maturity issue for the author.

Date: 4 September 2009 08:32 am (UTC)
ext_48519: (Default)
From: [identity profile] alienor77310.livejournal.com
It's not quite true that France was unaware of the problem. One major step taken against this was to raise the legal age of marriage to 18.

Date: 4 September 2009 03:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] apollinav.livejournal.com
I hadn't known that. That's interesting, and somewhat disgusting to think that younger girls were being married off.

Date: 4 September 2009 12:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] juno-magic.livejournal.com
I love reading lots of stuff that I loathe and condemn in life. As many others have noted: the difference between fantasy and reality, fiction and life.

Concerning fiction: I like the point Shiv made. In a modern society of western Europe—even in a secluded cultural enclave—it seems very unlikely for a marriage law the way it is posited in the classic Marriage Law Challenge to happen (and even less to be accepted, especially by Muggle-borns and half-bloods). I prefer MLCs that either address this problem or AU-MLCs that work with a different kind of marriage law to start with.

Concerning life: My husband is a specialist lawyer for family law and social law. And over the years, he's had many cases like those the article describes.

For example, at age fourteen a girl was forced to marry a man more than ten years her senior, and a foreigner living in Germany to boot. She is not even sixteen when she has their first child. At sixteen she and the child move to Germany to live with her husband. She speaks no word German, is beaten and abused on a daily basis. At 21 she has four children. That is the point when—if she is lucky—a female friend who knows German accompanies her to a lawyer and she files for divorce. This is by no means an extraordinary case.

Concerning values: The question is IF we truly believe that the human rights set down in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/) *are* universal, more important than any local laws or cultural customs.
Edited Date: 4 September 2009 12:14 pm (UTC)

Date: 4 September 2009 03:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] apollinav.livejournal.com
She came forward to file for divorce and the law was then able to sort them out. But there's an inherent backing off from authorities and most people when it comes to someone else's marriage, unless a wife (or husband) comes forward. Living in a western nation, fully aware of universal human rights, and knowing it's morally wrong - but who's going to intervene in a marriage if they don't know something is wrong. It's sticky, and there's no right or wrong answer. You just can't interrogate anyone you think has a suspicious marriage. People would howl about their rights, and aptly so. If there's suspected child abuse the authorities can come in, but spousal abuse often goes unreported. Thank you for your post and insight.

Date: 4 September 2009 01:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] persevero.livejournal.com
Absolutely. Forced marriage is in there with 'do not murder'. Schools in two nearby towns to here have procedures in place to inform the authorities about every female student who fails to reappear after the summer.

It also happens, more rarely, to males. A friend of mine had his university fees cut off because he didn't want to marry the girl his parents had selected (or rather that his uncle back in India had selected on their behalf). Okay, having to leave a full-time university course in favour of evening classes is hardly equivalent to coercion and rape, but it was still very unpleasant to choose to be cut off from his family forever, which it seems to be amounting to.

Date: 4 September 2009 04:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] apollinav.livejournal.com
I'm not saying by any means that I'm glad to hear that it happened to a male - no. But thank you for sharing a story about a forced groom, and from a different culture than Islam. The issue is not limited only to Islam.

Date: 4 September 2009 06:23 pm (UTC)

Date: 4 September 2009 02:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] debjunk.livejournal.com
There's a big difference between fiction, where things can work out 'magically' and this real life horror. It's hard to believe that such a practice still exists.

Date: 5 September 2009 01:22 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] slytherinlaurel.livejournal.com
A few years ago I read a story about two 13-year olds being forced into marriages in the US. The families sent them back to school afterwards, and their teachers at first thought the girls were making it up.

It makes me wonder if US schools are being asked to watch for the practice.
Page generated 24 Oct 2017 01:59 am
Powered by Dreamwidth Studios